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    Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

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    Donaldson

    Posts : 121
    Join date : 2010-10-22
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    Even more confused-Martinsville

    Post by Donaldson on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:01 am

    1. How was dusterlag not the lucky dog? When caution was called he was the only car 1 lap down. The rest of the field was 2 laps down. After the restart me and duster should have been the only 2 cars on the lead lap. Somehow you let a car that was 2 laps down get back on the lead lap and completely ignore duster's position.

    2. How does a car get 2 laps back under caution when only getting 1 lap back is possible?

    3. I thought when protest was typed in the red flag should come out and fix the issue instead of being ignored?

    4. No cars should be given the wave around until after the leader pits, not during the pit-stop. I thought it was odd you were telling everyone to pass the pace car while i was pitting. Thats not how it works.

    None of these rules were followed in this race. Can anyone give an explanation?

    Spike

    Posts : 106
    Join date : 2010-11-12

    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Spike on Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:24 am

    Even if duster pitted he still should've got the lucky dog. It should always be the 1st car a lap down no matter if they pit or not, not a car 2 or 3 or more laps down. If anything redflag the race so you can line everybody up correctly especially on short tracks.

    and another thing what the hell was it with a few cars racing so damn hard on the first few laps. My car got so f'd up from all the bumping on the first lap that it wouldn't turn without dragging the brake thru the whole turn afterwards.
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    Bmxtwins
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:58 am

    Donaldson in Rules Thread wrote:
    The next time by the pits is when all lap down cars would then make a pit-stop (this would also be when the lucky dog gets his wave around after pitting) Also if a lap down car chooses not to pit they too would get the wave around with the lucky dog as long as they do not make a pit-stop and are ahead of the leaders.


    Duster pitted at the same time Donaldson did and after pit stops, I saw on my ticker that Nathan was ahead of him and the 1st car a lap down. This is the reason we had normally done lucky dog wave around BEFORE pitstops.


    Don your always welcome to sit out and help us out. I volunteer and do my best. Even NASCAR makes mistakes once in a blue moon. Odds are we will eliminate the Lucky Dog rule at the end of the season.

    Donaldson wrote:1. How was dusterlag not the lucky dog? When caution was called he was the only car 1 lap down. The rest of the field was 2 laps down. After the restart me and duster should have been the only 2 cars on the lead lap. Somehow you let a car that was 2 laps down get back on the lead lap and completely ignore duster's position.

    2. How does a car get 2 laps back under caution when only getting 1 lap back is possible?

    3. I thought when protest was typed in the red flag should come out and fix the issue instead of being ignored?

    4. No cars should be given the wave around until after the leader pits, not during the pit-stop. I thought it was odd you were telling everyone to pass the pace car while i was pitting. Thats not how it works.

    None of these rules were followed in this race. Can anyone give an explanation?

    2. You were in the pit stop long enough for cars to gain their laps back.
    3. I knew what you were protesting already, and had seen the thing pan out.
    4. You were in pitlane when we called for the wave around, therefore dissengaging from the que.

    5th. #2,#3,#4 aren't rules. #4 simply allows a driver to protest. And if an admin feels it is worth an investigation the red flag will come out.

    I fail to see what is wrong here. You pitted, cars behind you passed you in the que. And then before you passed the pit exit more passed you. Duster would've received the Lucky Dog but he pitted. So, Nathan was rewarded it.


    -
    This should explain enough. Please PM me if you need further explanation.

    Thanks,
    Ray Smile


    Last edited by Bmxtwins on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total

    Donaldson

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Donaldson on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:49 am

    4. You were in pit lane when we called for the wave around, therefore dissengaging from the que.

    Exactly, that's not suppose to happen. Tell me when in real nascar have you ever seen a car that was 2 laps down get back on the lead lap under caution...Never...because its impossible to do.

    You cant let anyone do a wave around or start passing pace car until after both rounds of pit stops have completed.

    1.lead lap cars pit.
    2.lap down and lead lap cars pit
    3. Wave arounds start AFTER PIT STOPS ARE DONE. Lucky dog wave around first. Then the rest of the lap down cars who stayed out and didn't pit and are ahead of the leaders get their lap back.

    Nobody out there should be getting anymore than 1 lap back at any given time.
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    Bmxtwins
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:11 am

    Donaldson wrote:4. You were in pit lane when we called for the wave around, therefore dissengaging from the que.

    Exactly, that's not suppose to happen. Tell me when in real nascar have you ever seen a car that was 2 laps down get back on the lead lap under caution...Never...because its impossible to do.

    You cant let anyone do a wave around or start passing pace car until after both rounds of pit stops have completed.

    1.lead lap cars pit.
    2.lap down and lead lap cars pit
    3. Wave arounds start AFTER PIT STOPS ARE DONE. Lucky dog wave around first. Then the rest of the lap down cars who stayed out and didn't pit and are ahead of the leaders get their lap back.

    Nobody out there should be getting anymore than 1 lap back at any given time.

    We've been doing wave arounds this way for 2 years now, and you are yet the only person to see anything wrong with it.

    Please read here for further explantion: http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cup-nascars-pemberton-explains-new-restart-rules/

    Donaldson

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Donaldson on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

    I'm just saying what you are doing is incorrect. Nobody should ever get 2 laps back under caution, its common sense. Like i said, name 1 time in a real nascar race where someone has ever got 2 laps back under caution. It cant happen, only 1 lap is allowed.

    Its your league, you can run it as you see fit. I would help out monitoring but your rules make no sense this way. Going forward if me or anyone else is 1 or 2 laps down i guess we are just allowed to drive around everyone during pitstops and get back on the lead lap so i dont expect any consequences to happen to me or anyone else who does this, because the #21 was allowed to do it at martinsville.


    Last edited by Donaldson on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    A.Kline

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by A.Kline on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:46 pm

    I'm backing Donaldson on this.
    Here's how NASCAR does (I think... And also, you guy's aren't NASCAR, so it's still w/e you want to do.)
    Caution:
    Lap 1: Pits close, track gets cleared, damage cars have time to move out of the way in the pits.
    Lap 2: Lead cars are allowed to pit, and Lucky Dog gets the lap back as soon as he drives past the Start/Finish Line if he didn't pit.
    Lap 3: Pits open for everyone, and any lap down, or tail end drivers who didn't pit, ahead of the race leader get the wave around.
    Lap 4: Lucky Dog, and Wave arounds should be caught up, with rest of the field taking the green flag.

    Donaldson

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Donaldson on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:22 pm

    thank you kline, im pretty sure we are the only 2 people on here who understand how this is suppose to work..

    DusterLag

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by DusterLag on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:22 pm

    Officials, Please remember that Donaldson is only trying to help & make suggestions. Speaking down to him or blaming him is not the way to go and will only make you look bad.

    I also agree with Donaldson's opinions on how things "should" be done. This does not mean that you are going to (or need to) do things this way.

    In the end its your league and your decisions, if you don't like Donaldsons suggestions don't implement them. The pace car becomes the "leader" of the field when the actual leader reaches him/her, this would have solved this weird situation.

    It may be a good idea to Red Flag the field before or after a yellow to give everyone orders on where they should be, instead of everyone trying to make their own mind up on where they should be. The big problem is we are lacking order post yellow flag pit stops, maybe this would "help" solve it. Dont forget this is a suggestion and you shouldnt jump on it just because I suggested it.
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    Bmxtwins
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:43 pm

    It's not that we don't like them. It is just that sometimes they do not practically work aswell as they appear.

    We are still trying to perfect our own system, so suggestions are good. I understand it is confusing at times, and frusterating when the admins make mistakes. But we do make them, and we try to do this as best as we can.

    I just posted a clarification on how we will run the yellow flags in the rules page. This is the easiest way for everyone, and the best way to ensure consistency in our procedures. Even though multiple laps are allowed to be taken back, I doubt that it will happen at any future courses where the tracks will be much longer in length.

    Everyone here has the right to make suggestions, all are acknowledged, not all are implemented.

    Thank you,
    Ray Smile
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    Bmxtwins
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:28 pm

    A.Kline wrote:I'm backing Donaldson on this.
    Here's how NASCAR does (I think... And also, you guy's aren't NASCAR, so it's still w/e you want to do.)
    Caution:
    Lap 1: Pits close, track gets cleared, damage cars have time to move out of the way in the pits.
    Lap 2: Lead cars are allowed to pit, and Lucky Dog gets the lap back as soon as he drives past the Start/Finish Line if he didn't pit.
    Lap 3: Pits open for everyone, and any lap down, or tail end drivers who didn't pit, ahead of the race leader get the wave around.
    Lap 4: Lucky Dog, and Wave arounds should be caught up, with rest of the field taking the green flag.
    I overlooked your post.

    I agree with the first 3. For lucky dog, what if that driver pits, then it goes to the next driver a lap down? But, on the 4th what about drivers who managed to be waved around and still beat the leader around yet again. I think it would be more confusing to have them ahead of the leader at the start. Hence the reason the 2nd wave around would be allowed. I think this will only be a problem on the short tracks.
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    Breeze

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Breeze on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:29 pm

    1.I spun on lap 30,Spike hit the wall trying to avoid hitting me.I tried to get my car off the inside wall and resume racing.The yellow was called,yet 82,12,92,14,26,38,01,5 (The leader),and the 7 passed me.The only one who I thought seemed to be following the rule,21,slowed and stayed behind me,then, with the pace car and the leader clearly just in front of me,passed! WHY?
    2.I pitted wrong,apparently on the 1st pit open lap,was passed again by a few drivers,while in pits,then
    after I came back on track ,more drivers were waved by me.ok,apparently thats the penalty for pitting on wrong lap.But,and lets go back to the (1.) question.why was evryone allowed to pass? isn't the field position froze when the yellow is waved or no?
    3.On lap 80 or so,Kline, Donaldson and RPjones tangled, causing a yellow,yet only 1 driver was allowed to pass Rpjones.
    4.If your answer is that I took so long to get my car out of the way,then my next question is why wasn't the yellow called sooner on lap 30 caution,that way all those cars would not have passed me ,plus that would have allowed me to get the hell outta the way! A red flag when a yellow is called would avoid all the confusion.I'm sure all drivers can bring there cars to a safe and complete stop within say a 5 second time frame,any drivers that were side by side,or disputing would go to the driver who was ahead before the yellow was called.orto the one that was ahead when they completed the previous lap.


    Last edited by Breeze on Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a wordor 2)

    GTSVip9

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by GTSVip9 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:18 pm

    Honestly, if you follow NASCAR's system correctly, it will be the best system for the league to use. From what I can tell, some of your issues are coming from improper usage of the Lucky Dog rule. The driver who is the first car a lap down should be getting his lap back BEFORE the lead lap cars pit, which is also when that driver will pit. Everyone continues as normal around the track, leaders join onto the rear after exiting the pits. Next, the cars a lap or more down pit. After pitting, those cars fall back in line behind the leaders who pitted. Now here is where there seem to be more issues. At this point, any car that was not on the lead lap and did not pit is now between the pace car and the leader of the race (if every lead lap car pitted. If this is not the case, there is no wave around). At this time, those cars will pass the pace car and take the wave around. Once again there is even more confusion here. The "right" way to do things is to take the drivers who are now on the lead lap and move them ahead of the lap down cars, but in the interest of time and simplicity, this is something I could see being overlooked. Depending on what series you're looking at (I'm talking outside of NASCAR here), lap down cars will re-start mixed in with the lead lap cars.

    Really I don't quite understand why there have been so many issues trying to get this right, maybe it's just because I'm used to how racing is conducted in real life. Honestly, every driver in the race should have a pretty good idea of who should be where after a caution comes out if they use the F5 screen. Pitting I can understand drivers not knowing quite where they're going to end up but they once again should have a general idea. Perhaps most just plain don't understand the rules and how they work. The way I see it, it's almost just as much the driver's responsibility to be fully aware of what's going on and where they should be at all times as it is the admins. Now this is not to say the drivers should be held responsible for not being in the right position since the admin is supposed to be running things, but I can tell a few of the drivers at times seem to understand more of what's going on than the admins do.

    Now this is not intended to cause trouble or bash anyone/the league, more or less just what I've observed vs real world application. Yeah I understand live cautions are a tough thing to pull off but they way I see it is if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.
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    Bmxtwins
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    Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:43 am

    I think the reason we are running into trouble is that, we used to run pitting for all cars under the same lap. Now that it is split it creats some chaos in our procedures. It seems that everyone unanimously agrees that there needs to be change.

    As for the lucky dog, it seems everyone is suggesting a different time to call it off.

    Donaldson

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Donaldson on Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:01 am

    when we ran the milwaukee race we had no problems at all. pitting procedures where correctly done every time with that format. no one had complaints or issues. you did the lead lap cars pit first only, they got back on track and lined up behind the lap cars. then next time by everyone had the option of pitting. then you gave the lucky dog wave around along with cars that stayed out.

    if something works better then by all means lets try it out.

    honestly with all these problems i would eliminate the option of lap cars staying out trying to get the wave around while the leaders pit and ONLY give the lucky dog winner 1 lap back and nobody else. that would probabley solve alot of the issues and make it easier for you guys. That way you would only be keeping track of the lucky dog winner at the time of caution. everyone else who is a lap down would remain a lap down and will have to wait for the restart to battle each other to try to get the next lucky dog.
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    A.Kline

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by A.Kline on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:05 pm

    Bmxtwins wrote:

    I agree with the first 3. For lucky dog, what if that driver pits, then it goes to the next driver a lap down? But, on the 4th what about drivers who managed to be waved around and still beat the leader around yet again. I think it would be more confusing to have them ahead of the leader at the start. Hence the reason the 2nd wave around would be allowed. I think this will only be a problem on the short tracks.

    I'll try to make it as simple as I can.

    ~ It goes to any car that's the first car a lap down, who passes the Start/Finish line on the track.

    ~ What about the 4th lap? The field is taking the green flag, so, how can there be a other wave around?

    ~ Here's why there isn't 2nd wave around...
    1. Pit road first opens up for only leaders, no one else. (Lucky Dog gets lap back, lap down cars have to wait there turn to pit.)
    2. Next time by, the cars that WERE A LAP DOWN now have a chance to pit.
    3. Now once the field gets the "ONE TO GO TELL GREEN," that's when all the cars that didn't pit, and that are ahead of the leader get the wave around.
    4. It's now the green flag, nothing more can be down with wave arounds now.
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    Mustangman759
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Mustangman759 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:43 pm

    A.Kline wrote:
    Bmxtwins wrote:

    I agree with the first 3. For lucky dog, what if that driver pits, then it goes to the next driver a lap down? But, on the 4th what about drivers who managed to be waved around and still beat the leader around yet again. I think it would be more confusing to have them ahead of the leader at the start. Hence the reason the 2nd wave around would be allowed. I think this will only be a problem on the short tracks.

    I'll try to make it as simple as I can.

    ~ It goes to any car that's the first car a lap down, who passes the Start/Finish line on the track.

    ~ What about the 4th lap? The field is taking the green flag, so, how can there be a other wave around?

    ~ Here's why there isn't 2nd wave around...
    1. Pit road first opens up for only leaders, no one else. (Lucky Dog gets lap back, lap down cars have to wait there turn to pit.)
    2. Next time by, the cars that WERE A LAP DOWN now have a chance to pit.
    3. Now once the field gets the "ONE TO GO TELL GREEN," that's when all the cars that didn't pit, and that are ahead of the leader get the wave around.
    4. It's now the green flag, nothing more can be down with wave arounds now.
    @ point #1. We tried doing this at Daytona and it apparantly caused more confusion, and then donaldson made some suggestions that seemed to have worked. I think the way we had lucky dog before worked, but these pitting rules that Donaldson has come up with will probably be a better combination.

    Donaldson

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Donaldson on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:43 pm

    well this is what i would do. i would forget the wave around all together with lap down cars, with the exception of the lucky dog. That seems to be the major problem.

    Caution out - admins notify who was the first car 1 lap down (Lucky dog)

    Caution Lap 1 - Lead Lap cars pit and come out behind the lap down cars
    Caution Lap 2 - Lap down cars pit mandatory(including lucky dog), no lap down cars can stay out, they must pit. Lead lap cars may also pit again if they choose. All lap down cars will then come out of pits lined up behind leaders.
    Caution Lap 3 - Lucky Dog gets wave around (only able to make 1 lap up) Must line up at the end of the field for restart behind all lap down cars.

    We go green.

    doing it this way the admins would only have to keep track of 1 car (lucky dog) and only worry about 1 car (lucky dog) doing the wave around each caution. what do yall think?
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    Mustangman759
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Mustangman759 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:13 pm

    please note the above post is not by me. bmx forgot to sign me off of my own pc. again
    anyways my opinion. 1 wave around and thats it.
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    Bmxtwins
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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

    Post by Bmxtwins on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:43 pm

    ok enough of this. It's a broken record, and we will run the procedures the way we think they will be best suited for the future Smile

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    Re: Yellow Flag Suggestions (Split Topic)

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